Science In A Magical World

[Samloyal23]

I've seen numerous settings that combine magic and technology to various degrees and to a large extent they don't make sense to me. If magic is plentiful in a world, there is no logical incentive to develop conventional technology. Conventional technology would only be developed to fill gaps in the advancement of magic. But, what I do think is that magic will develop that will be based on scientific knowledge as a new form of technology. A simple example of scientific discovery in operation via magic would be a druid that takes on the form of a migratory bird. Traveling with a flock from one hemisphere to another, the druid would be able to observe astronomical phenomena that would show the druid that the world is round, that stars vary in different hemispheres, that items of different sizes dropped from the same height land at the same time, et cetera. Just being able to fly would teach the druid about weather, density, aerodynamics. Spreading this knowledge would change the worldview of his people. New magic spells and items could be based on this knowledge. Thoughts?

[TerishD]

I go further than that. I have those of my world knowing certain things simply because the gods tell them. No obscure wording and vague references, but blantant statements of facts -- that can be verified.

I then go off on a tangent about how my magical universe has laws that our world does not. The heavier the object, the faster it falls. There are no protons, electrons, etc., but an atom is the smallest individisable part of an object. During a game I preach classical physics, under the assumption that the ancients believed these laws BECAUSE they were told them by learned visitors from a magical universe where such laws WERE TRUE. My basic premise is to prevent meta-gaming (we can make rapid fire machine guns, because I know how), but it also keeps the perspective on magic being the dominant method of getting things done.

[Deovalente]

Hmmm, where magic meets science...

Terry Pratchett does a lot of funny things how magic and technology merge.
Like in the color of magic, the Astronomer of Krull tried to determine the sex of the Great A'Tuin
by sending a spacecraft over the edge of the world.

Or, Arthur Weasley's infatuation with the mundane mechanical devices of muggles and adding a
few special tweaks magically.

Or, the Dark Sun setting that has ancient artifacts actually mechanical devices from a former age
with "magic-like" powers, but are merely advanced technology.

In most fantastic settings, magic and science never meet. It all depends on your preference I guess.
I can see how magic would become predominant over science IF that was the primary means of dealing
with solutions to problems - and how science would be a weak substitute.

If the principals of natural order can be explained both magically and through science then you'd have quite
the hybrid of two worlds.. Steam punk maybe, or spell jammer?

My game is heavy into magic, so science/technology generally is a poor step child of magic. It does have some fun
applications however.

[Samloyal23]

Fantasy physics can be hard to keep consistant, but if you can manage that it could actually make a setting more authentic. In ancient times a large part of a priest's job was predicting stellar events and seasonal changes, and even the development of mathematics was affected by magical beliefs. The so-called "Pythagorean Theorem" was probably developed first by druids as it can be seen in use in early Celtic architecture long before that Greek plagiarist was born. Sacred geometry was known in many cultures. With scrying spells, teleportation, and shapechanging, a spellcaster can observe events no conventional scientist could detect without advanced technology. In an authentic setting sufficiently advanced magic is a form of technology that reflects the beliefs and customs of the cultures that populate the world...

[Legatus_Legionis]

One of the things that makes fantasy "Fantasy", is the fact it does not have to follow the rules and laws of our science.

Even in our history, when an advanced civilization comes into contact with very primitive people, the things they can do is often mistaken for "Magic" at first.

Like the comedy "A Connecticut yankee in king Arthur's Court".

Just how advanced one's civilizations are in their fantasy setting, as well as how primitive they are is part of run.

Would ESP, psychics, supernatural, etc be thought of as "magic" in our world, since science cannot explain them with 100% certainty?

But if a group of players insists on bringing in aspects of today's technology into your fantasy setting, I like to use the comparison with the TInker Gnomes of the DragonLance setting. Technology can work, but NOT in the way one would expect, and always with the probability of something going serious wrong to be very high.

Trying to make sense of science/technology in a fantasy setting is IMO along the sames lines as saying "science fiction" has to make sense in today's world. It is something we have to accept.

Light speed, hyper space, ray guns, clones, androids, alien species, inhabited worlds, black holes, time travel, etc.

We accept it (even when some of the assumptions are harder to believe than others), so then why not the same for fantasy?

And who is to say our recognized laws of science has to work in imaginary settings (be it fantasy or science fiction)?

Like the example given by TerishD, a heavier object will fall faster than a lighter object (forget aero-dynamics, mass/size, gravity, etc.) if that is part of the universe of where it was observed.

If one can't use their IMAGINATION to get past this, then why are they even playing?

[Samloyal23]

No matter how magical a world you live in it is going to have some rules that can be exploited. The knowledge of those rules is science, the exploitation is technology. Wizards and clerics are highly intelligent, usually the most educated members of the society they are a part of, so it makes sense that they would value knowledge and learn how to take advantage of their knowledge to do things comparable to what we call technology. The core technology of magic is the spell. I doubt most mages are big on strict scientific method, magic seems too artistic for that, but what mage would not take advantage of the knowledge he possessed about the nature of reality? Of course someone researching a new spell is going to consider applying all known factors. I think if one is going to develop a realistic magic system and campaign setting the reality of being in that setting, what one would know about the world, would have to be a consideration. So, the first question one has to start with is "What do people know and what can they discover?"

[The Mad Kobold]

One of the things that makes fantasy "Fantasy", is the fact it does not have to follow the rules and laws of our science.

Even in our history, when an advanced civilization comes into contact with very primitive people, the things they can do is often mistaken for "Magic" at first.

Like the comedy "A Connecticut yankee in king Arthur's Court".

Just how advanced one's civilizations are in their fantasy setting, as well as how primitive they are is part of run.

Would ESP, psychics, supernatural, etc be thought of as "magic" in our world, since science cannot explain them with 100% certainty?

But if a group of players insists on bringing in aspects of today's technology into your fantasy setting, I like to use the comparison with the TInker Gnomes of the DragonLance setting. Technology can work, but NOT in the way one would expect, and always with the probability of something going serious wrong to be very high.

Trying to make sense of science/technology in a fantasy setting is IMO along the sames lines as saying "science fiction" has to make sense in today's world. It is something we have to accept.

Light speed, hyper space, ray guns, clones, androids, alien species, inhabited worlds, black holes, time travel, etc.

We accept it (even when some of the assumptions are harder to believe than others), so then why not the same for fantasy?

And who is to say our recognized laws of science has to work in imaginary settings (be it fantasy or science fiction)?

Like the example given by TerishD, a heavier object will fall faster than a lighter object (forget aero-dynamics, mass/size, gravity, etc.) if that is part of the universe of where it was observed.

If one can't use their IMAGINATION to get past this, then why are they even playing?

I think there would have to some sort of laws for magic to work in any coherent manner. If a certain phrase or component meant ‘create arrow’ one moment and 'detect magic' the next, it would be impossible to determine what a spell would do. All magic would function like wild magic, except even more so (and would be ether useless or downright dangerous for the caster). Also, to build on what Samloyal has said, there needs to be some sort of rule frame work if there is going to be any magical research at all. If the requirements and/or restrictions for spells fluctuated randomly, magic would be dismissed as unpredictable and dangerous. Creatures with magical abilities would learn not to use them or would go extinct very quickly.

And the argument "just use your imagination" really is a cop-out for careless and lazy writing.

[TerishD]

I think there would have to some sort of laws for magic to work in any coherent manner. If a certain phrase or component meant ‘create arrow’ one moment and 'detect magic' the next, it would be impossible to determine what a spell would do. All magic would function like wild magic, except even more so (and would be ether useless or downright dangerous for the caster). Also, to build on what Samloyal has said, there needs to be some sort of rule frame work if there is going to be any magical research at all. If the requirements and/or restrictions for spells fluctuated randomly, magic would be dismissed as unpredictable and dangerous. Creatures with magical abilities would learn not to use them or would go extinct very quickly.

Bringing out another point of view -

There are laws, but they are so obscure that to the normal person magic does appear as unpredictable and dangerous. This is actually the explanation for why strange and odd things happen in a fantasy world, and why those that study magic NEED to keep studying the lore. I work hard to stress that magic is outside the realm of repeatable science. It can be controlled in a dependable manner, but only by those that devote time and effort into studying magic. Simply learning a phrase of odd syllables and how to flutter the hands is not enough. One has to understand how that phrase should be uttered NOW, and exactly how to alter the movement of the fingers NOW. It is not easy, but there is a way, which those that use magic have learned.

[Samloyal23]

I think one way that magic is different from the mechanical technology of our world is that there is a psychological/emotional component. Magic uses force of will to alter and manipulate the normal laws of nature, whatever those might be in your fantasy setting, and the "technology" of magic is a mental tool for creating a framework for the magical energies being harnessed to act predictably. Spellcasters pass on these phrases and gestures to their apprentices to allow them to communicate ideas in an objective manner, but there is always some uncertainty in the application. This explains why factors like spell damage vary, the manifestation is not 100% consistent...

[Samloyal23]

An idea has been brewing twixt my ears. A magical world could be pushed to develop some hard technology if there were magical dead-zones where it was harder to use magic. People living in such magic-poor areas could turn to alchemy and mechanical devices to augment whatever magic, if any, they had access to. Necessity being the mother of invention and greed the little bastard's absentee father, even a small amount of magic could be used to enhance mundane devices, which could lead to the creation of items that would be even more powerful if taken to areas where magic was more plentiful. This would push mages to look into metamagic as well, to study and understand discrepancies in the supply of magical power in different areas. Both magic and technology would be pushed to develop...

[Legatus_Legionis]

Sam, is some novels I have ready, instead of areas of lesser magic, they do the opposite.

There are areas where magic is very strong, in part because they are at the crosswords of lines of power (or webs of power) and normal everywhere else. Many wizards will try to find such hot-spots and build their towers there.

Or in an example where magic is plentiful, areas of non-magic was the results of ancient battles of magic, where so much magic was used it dried up the magic in the area. Such areas would take a very long time to recover.


But I do like how by strenghening one, you build upon the other concept.

[TerishD]

I agree with your idea, Samloyal23, but not with where you went with it. A 'dead zone' for magic could cause the locals to develop some technology. I however do not believe that it would spread. The truth would remain that magic would be considered an easier method of accomplishing a job. Magic also does not have the demands of technology (fuel, maintenance, etc.) or the waste of technology. Thus, on a world where magic was possible, magic would rule as the accepted method of getting jobs done.

[Samloyal23]

I agree with your idea, Samloyal23, but not with where you went with it. A 'dead zone' for magic could cause the locals to develop some technology. I however do not believe that it would spread. The truth would remain that magic would be considered an easier method of accomplishing a job. Magic also does not have the demands of technology (fuel, maintenance, etc.) or the waste of technology. Thus, on a world where magic was possible, magic would rule as the accepted method of getting jobs done.

If dead zones were common the technology would slowly spread. It would not advance very far if magic was still common. If the enemy tribe in the next valley has more magic than you, you better invent something to make up for it.The less magic you have or the harder it is to use the more common technology is and the more advanced it will be. 'Tis a matter of balance. But even a slight advance over standard medieval technology could lead to interesting inventions and fusions of magic and technology. I'm thinking my world of Arathia has areas where magic energy is too low to allow normal spell casting but magic items still work most of the time and crude magical "essences" can store energy for use as power sources for machines. Basically a low magic alchemy can fuel and animate simple machines and allow the creations of things like guns, trains, and blimps with less actual technological advancement than in our own world. So in areas where the magic is weaker a sort of steampunk technology develops. Just toying with the idea and fishing for suggestions...